Posted here out of respect of our past relations.
NMTZ is giving you a right of reply before this is poted to Galnet in 24 hours.
***

I am Caldari.
Yes blind chance and wide-eyed idealism brought me here, to Molden Heath.
I was inspired by the freedom movement I saw here.
The persuit of creating a place free of opression and slavery.
I saw a place where great strides towards this had already been made.
I came from several othe low security regions. They remain largely abandoned even to this day.
Yet Molden Heath still thrives with those persuing their tasks in space normally filled with nothing but fear.

Yes, political opportunism is betraying that goal.

Electus Matari: you are betraying the people you claim to represent.

You loudly proclaim you are “freedom fighters” for the Matari cause. Yet you tacitly approve of the daily slaughter of these very people.

The course of defending the innocent is by no means an easy one.
And, yes, it is frequently politically inconvenient.

But why fight one evil only to put in it’s place another?

Why fight the slaver Amarr when your own allies blockade Matari stargates against all and sundry – including the majority Matari using them?

Electus Matari: you have been staring into the Abyss too long.
You are embracing monsters in your fight against monsters.

Electus Matari: Look at yourselves in the mirror of your own words.
Do so, now, before your features turn Amarr...

You are burning down your own house while shouting from the top floor that you are rescuing it.

You talk a freedom fighter’s talk.
Yet your actions are separatist.

You loudly proclaim to stand for justice. Yet you turn a blind eye to the crimes of those you gather around you.


Put down your Gallentean Champagne. Put down your Jovian caviar.


Look at the casualty lists.
Look at the reams of Matari commoners listed on the killboards of your “allies”.
I am sure they are all there with good cause.
For we all know how solo university corporation pilots single-handedly take on every gatecamp they see... regardless of what they are flying.
And we know how our long-term friends reklessly shoot anything neutral in sight...

Your political-double talk is costing a torrent of Matari ships and clones.

Yes, Matari.
Those you claim to be fighting for.
Common people, remember.
Those you claim to be defending.
Those you claim to represent.

Do not insult them further with your empty words.

Either align yourself with terrorists who bleat their cause merely as an excuse to spread random violence.
Or make a stand to truly represent and preserve the qualities you claim to be defending.

Oh, we in Namiz'aar K'in know this is not easy.
Our many wounds show this.
But we bear them proudly, knowing we have not compromised our ideals.
We have not sold out those we strive to protect.
We do not deafen our ears to the suffering of the innocent through the loud beating of war drums.

Either declare your hand as a self interested separatist movement like any other, or re-examine what it means to be a true freedom fighter.

DuPuy, I hate to say this, but you use the words "out of respect for our past relationship" and then proceed to ignore every single thing we have said. Same as you did the last time you decided to call us traitors and friends to the Ammatar, for which you had an explanation... and after which you stopped slinging insults around but your apology seems to have been lost in the post.

THEY ARE NOT OUR ALLIES.

Understand? We are not fighting alongside them. We are not helping them. We have spoken to TAS and they agreed to NRDS as a nice gesture to us. Then NMTZ, UNE and Phoenix Tribe attacked them, regardless of being aware of this, and they scrapped NRDS. I severly doubt they are prepared to make any more nice, trusting gestures after that.

WE DID NOT CALL THEM. WE DID NOT HIRE THEM. WE CANNOT CONTROL THEM.

We assisted in brokering standings FOR THOSE WHO WANTED THEM. We did not demand anyone set them blue. Nor were we in any position to force them to set anyone blue, but we tried to persuade them when we were asked to.

Where, in our efforts to get TAS to stop shooting the locals, are we "tacitly betraying our own people"?

We are focusing our fire on CAIN because that is the fastest way to end TAS' interest in the area. It's also the fastest way to free our hands from one of several wardecs and get us back to being able to operate in lowsec.

Of course, you can start a war with TAS, possibly gank a couple of their ships, have them move their full forces to the area and start a war with you and stay a couple of months longer than they otherwise would if you think that's more productive.

I'm going to reiterate my first point here because I've said it repeatedly to you and Pacal and other members of NMTZ and you don't seem to have an answer to it, you just keep on slinging the mud.

They are not our allies, and they are pirating here because you shot them. Just because we can talk to them does not give us any control over them.

We don't have the resources to defeat them if they bring their full forces, and neither do you, and neither do all of us put together. The fastest way to stop the gatecamp is for us to get rid of CAIN - the reason TAS are here.

This is twice now that NMTZ has insulted us from a basis of being utterly wrong. Don't let this be the second time you forget to apologise.

There is no reality beyond perception.

Our perceptions have been guided through the words of you and your people to lead us to believe the following:
- Guristas - and others Matari "freedom fighters" - were invited here by you.
- The likes of Guristas have your support, represented by your standings and your advocacy for us to adopt such standings.

It is a little late to "separate" yourself so late beyond the fact.

A little late for painting a different picture.

These organisations lost their standings with - though not only - NMTZ because of their complete disregard for our friends and neighbors and the cause we represent.

It was not the result of a random dice roll.

We set these people blue by your recommendation.

It was the result of being blue... watching non-blues (why may have been blue to us) being blasted for the mere offence of jumping through a gate... that compelled us to change these standings.

Crime has consequence.
At least, we attempt to make it so.
We do not seek to encourage it by ignoring it.

Well may you attack me personally.
But you have not replied, Evanda:

Who are you, Electus Matari?
What DO you stand for?
What DO you believe?

DuPuy Wrote:Our perceptions have been guided through the words of you and your people to lead us to believe the following:
- Guristas - and others Matari "freedom fighters" - were invited here by you.

Let me I quote from a mail I wrote to a list that at least Rawk Awn and Ma Zhiqiang are subscribed to:

[quote author=Arkady Sadik]2007.09.20 21:27
Hello everyone!
I would like to respond to some unfounded and wrong allegiations that have come up in MH-SEC and other places.

Electus Matari did not call in GURIS nor VETO.

[...][/quote]

I have forwarded the full, two-part mail to you, as apparently, there was a communication problem within NMTZ regarding this.

Please also note the date of the mail. That was a day after we had heard for the first time that people thought we had "invited" GURIS to Molden Heath.

We haven't. And we never said we did.

Then you have a serious PR problem.
Clearly, that mailing list does not have broad enough public reach.

So far, you have given me cause to AMEND my draft statement posted here.
That is why it was posted here first.

However...

Who are you, Electus Matari?

How can you declare "new pirates - Guristas" in your "Molden Heath" threat warning channel...
while advocating your blue stance with them?

At the moment, the perceptions generated by your historic public stances and your recent actions are the following:

- Amarr are evil for killing and denying freedom to Matari.
- Matari terrorists are heroes despite killing and denying freedom to Matari.

Is this acceptable so long as those Matari dieing are not those belonging to factions favorable to you?

Who are you, Electus Matari?
What do you believe?

There is a reality beyond perception and it's called fact.

If this post is too late to paint such a completely different picture, as you put it, how about this post from 4 days ago. Notice the posts from VETO and TAS in which they also state they're not working for us.

Then there's stuff like this:

[size=8pt][ 2007.09.22 18:57:53 ] Arkady Sadik > The Gurlstas Associates
[ 2007.09.22 18:58:20 ] Arkady Sadik > (That's an l, not an i, in "Gurlstas")
[ 2007.09.22 18:58:51 ] xxxx > We have both set blue per EM request.
[ 2007.09.22 19:07:51 ] Arkady Sadik > rgr
[ 2007.09.22 19:08:40 ] Evanda Char > We asked?
[ 2007.09.22 19:09:16 ] Evanda Char > You misinterpreted - I said you might want to
[ 2007.09.22 19:09:55 ] Evanda Char > And you really, really want to make sure that they have you set likewise
[ 2007.09.22 19:10:10 ] Evanda Char > We have no control over them at all
[ 2007.09.22 19:10:57 ] Evanda Char > They're not here mercing, they're here for their own reasons, and operating independently[/size]

And this:

[size=8pt][ 2007.09.15 00:54:15 ] Evanda Char > Just an FYI folks, The Black Rabbits will be in the area fighting a common war target of ours
[ 2007.09.15 00:54:55 ] Evanda Char > They, and I quote, "will be limiting their revenue stream to the Caldari pigdogs for now" ie they won't be pirating while in the area
[ 2007.09.15 00:55:44 ] Nachshon > OK
[ 2007.09.15 00:55:53 ] Rawk Awn > o.O ok
[ 2007.09.15 00:56:05 ] Davlos > Guristas. Interesting
[ 2007.09.15 00:56:29 ] Nachshon > Mind you, that doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy tolerating Guristas
[ 2007.09.15 00:58:02 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD changed to "xxxxx The Black Rabbits [GURIS] are not pirating while in the area fighting CAIN. They will set red people shooting them, though." by Evanda Char
[ 2007.09.15 00:58:53 ] Rawk Awn > erm, under NMTZ ROEs, their outlaws are legitimate targets.
[ 2007.09.15 00:59:04 ] Evanda Char > Then you'll get set red by them
[ 2007.09.15 00:59:34 ] Evanda Char > We haven't invited them in, they were coming anyway because this is where CAIN is
[ 2007.09.15 00:59:35 ] Rawk Awn > understood
[ 2007.09.15 00:59:46 ] Rawk Awn > ah, ok
[ 2007.09.15 00:59:52 ] Evanda Char > We're not allied, just both fighting the same person
[ 2007.09.15 01:00:00 ] Evanda Char > But they did agree to go NRDS
[ 2007.09.15 01:00:11 ] Evanda Char > When we asked them nicely
[ 2007.09.15 01:00:20 ] Rawk Awn > they're neutral to us atm, but if someone engages their outlaws...
[ 2007.09.15 01:00:36 ] Evanda Char > You might want to caution people, perhaps?
[ 2007.09.15 01:00:47 ] Evanda Char > They've done a lot of fighting for the Minmatar in the past
[ 2007.09.15 01:00:58 ] Rawk Awn > certainly; however, they are Guristas
[ 2007.09.15 01:01:12 ] Evanda Char > Largely because folks like CAIN choose to sit in the Amarr's laps
[ 2007.09.15 01:01:23 ] Evanda Char > /emote nods
[ 2007.09.15 01:01:43 ] Evanda Char > I'm more suggesting that the Black Rabbits are not an easy fight by any chalk
[ 2007.09.15 01:01:51 ] Rawk Awn > "All for the good of Money"Gurista Loyalist Pirates and Mercs.
[ 2007.09.15 01:01:56 ] Nachshon > Still, I used to shoot their friends for a living
[ 2007.09.15 01:01:59 ] Rawk Awn > their corp description
[ 2007.09.15 01:02:31 ] Evanda Char > /emote nods > They're not denying being pirates, just being pirates in Republic space
[ 2007.09.15 01:02:37 ] Rawk Awn > we'll be neutral until they engage us. I can't negotiate anything more, Eva, sorry.
[ 2007.09.15 01:02:55 ] Evanda Char > /emote nods > They won't engage you unless you engage them
[ 2007.09.15 01:02:56 ] Rawk Awn > or, if we engage an outlaw of thiers
[ 2007.09.15 01:03:02 ] Rawk Awn > ok
[ 2007.09.15 01:03:54 ] Nachshon > I guess that as long as they do not pirate in Republic space, or target Minmatar loyalists, I think I can tolerate them
[ 2007.09.15 01:04:24 ] Evanda Char > If folks go shooting them, they'll be bringing it on themselves, sadly
[ 2007.09.15 01:04:43 ] Evanda Char > they don't want to fight Matari, but will defend themselves
[ 2007.09.15 01:05:59 ] Rawk Awn > I've sent an alliance mail[/size]

And I'm attacking you?

Let me present an entirely different way of phrasing your stream of insults:

"Hey EM, are you still blue with TAS?"

And here's another thing you could have tried:

"Would you consider helping us fight TAS?" rather than what sounds an awful lot like blackmail.

Thankyou for the correction about them being "invited".

I highlight the corrections made in light of your posts to this point.

How does this read as a revised draft?

*******
Version 2

Posted here out of respect of our past relations.
NMTZ is giving you a right of reply before this is poted to Galnet in 24 hours.
***

I am Caldari.
Yes blind chance and wide-eyed idealism brought me here, to Molden Heath.
I was inspired by the freedom movement I saw here.
The persuit of creating a place free of opression and slavery.
I saw a place where great strides towards this had already been made.
I came from several othe low security regions. They remain largely abandoned even to this day.
Yet Molden Heath still thrives with those persuing their tasks in space normally filled with nothing but fear.

Yes, political opportunism is betraying that goal.

Electus Matari: you are betraying the people you claim to represent.

You loudly proclaim you are “freedom fighters” for the Matari cause. Yet you tacitly approve of the daily slaughter of these very people.

The course of defending the innocent is by no means an easy one.
And, yes, it is frequently politically inconvenient.

But why fight one evil only to put in it’s place another?

Why fight the slaver Amarr when those you fight with blockade Matari stargates against all and sundry – including the majority Matari using them?

Electus Matari: you have been staring into the Abyss too long.
You are embracing monsters in your fight against monsters.

Electus Matari: Look at yourselves in the mirror of your own words.
Do so, now, before your features turn Amarr...

You are allowing your own house to burn down while shouting from the top floor that you are saving it from a flood.

You talk a freedom fighter’s talk.
Yet your actions are separatist.

You loudly proclaim to stand for justice. Yet you turn a blind eye to the crimes of those you gather around you.


Put down your Gallentean Champagne. Put down your Jovian caviar.


Look at the casualty lists.
Look at the reams of Matari commoners listed on the killboards of your “blues”.
I am sure they are all there with good cause.
For we all know how solo university corporation pilots single-handedly take on every gatecamp they see... regardless of what they are flying.
And we know how our long-term friends reklessly shoot anything neutral in sight...

Your political-double talk is costing a torrent of Matari ships and clones.

Yes, Matari.
Those you claim to be fighting for.
Common people, remember.
Those you claim to be defending.
Those you claim to represent.

Do not insult them further with your empty words.

Either openly align yourself with terrorists who bleat their cause merely as an excuse to spread random violence.
Or make a stand to truly represent and preserve the qualities you claim to be defending.

Oh, we in Namiz'aar K'in know this is not easy.
Our many wounds show this.
But we bear them proudly, knowing we have not compromised our ideals.
We have not sold out those we strive to protect.
We do not deafen our ears to the suffering of the innocent through the loud beating of war drums.

Either declare your hand as a self interested separatist movement like any other, or re-examine what it means to be a true freedom fighter.

Evanda: my question was directed to Electus Matari.
Your name, those of your diplomats, your commanders, your individual characters or qualities were never raised, singled out or derided.

My concerns are with the collective directions and actions of the corporate body that calls itself Electus Matari.

It shall remain that way.

I seek to determine that body's character.

We are presented with a challenge:
Pirates who happen to be politically aligned with our mutual anti-amarr objectives are pirating in our space.
They claim they are not, but anyone sitting in a covops next to one of their gatecamps will quickly see the lie in their words.

It is a challenge similar to many we have been presented with in recent months.

It is a challenge that raises questions:

Electus Matari:
What do you represent?
What do you stand for?
Who are you?

DuPuy Wrote:Thankyou for the correction about them being "invited".

I highlight the corrections made in light of your posts to this point.

How does this read as a revised draft?

Like an very colourful attempt at blackmail unpolluted by facts.

DuPuy Wrote:*******
Version 2

Posted here out of respect of our past relations.
NMTZ is giving you a right of reply before this is poted to Galnet in 24 hours.
***

I am Caldari.
Yes blind chance and wide-eyed idealism brought me here, to Molden Heath.
I was inspired by the freedom movement I saw here.
The persuit of creating a place free of opression and slavery.
I saw a place where great strides towards this had already been made.
I came from several othe low security regions. They remain largely abandoned even to this day.
Yet Molden Heath still thrives with those persuing their tasks in space normally filled with nothing but fear.

Yes, political opportunism is betraying that goal.

We are not being "politically opportunistic." You are, we aren't. Had we seized upon the CAIN dec as an excuse to buddy up with TAS, had we asked for them, had we done a single damn thing to invite them or support them, that would have politically expedient. We didn't do it. When they announced they were coming here, we undertook a hell of a lot of work to put them in a position where they were willing to go NRDS.

DuPuy Wrote:Electus Matari: you are betraying the people you claim to represent.

You loudly proclaim you are “freedom fighters” for the Matari cause. Yet you tacitly approve of the daily slaughter of these very people.

No, we are negotiating with TAS to get them to stop it. We are working to get rid of CAIN so they will need nothing more here. You can see me protesting the situation in the next bloody thread down! How dare you tell me what I, or anyone in this alliance, does or does not think?

DuPuy Wrote:The course of defending the innocent is by no means an easy one.
And, yes, it is frequently politically inconvenient.

But why fight one evil only to put in it’s place another?

We didn't. We had nothing to do with them coming here. And if anyone is responsible for them, try the people who shot them when they were NOT pirating. That would be you.

DuPuy Wrote:Why fight the slaver Amarr when those you fight with blockade Matari stargates against all and sundry – including the majority Matari using them?

We don't fight with them. Did I not just explain that? At length? We have an enemy in common. We have never shared a gang with TAS. We have not been working with them. They're just here. That's all.

DuPuy Wrote:Electus Matari: you have been staring into the Abyss too long.
You are embracing monsters in your fight against monsters.

You are creating monsters. And again, you accuse of embracing them. We are not helping them. We are not chummy with them. All we are, is in talks with them to try to find a solution to the current problem.

DuPuy Wrote:Electus Matari: Look at yourselves in the mirror of your own words.
Do so, now, before your features turn Amarr...

That's a really good way to keep our respect. That's very civil of you.

DuPuy Wrote:You are allowing your own house to burn down while shouting from the top floor that you are saving it from a flood.

The same could be said of someone who starts wars they cannot finish and leaves the people merely travelling the area to pay the price. Do you have a plan for how you're going to defeat TAS? Do you have the resources to do it? You don't, neither do we - you're just going to force them to stay here to finish wiping you out, when you could just let EM deal with CAIN in highsec, and TAS would go home again.

DuPuy Wrote:You talk a freedom fighter’s talk.
Yet your actions are separatist.

Given you didn't actually know we are in negotiations with TAS, and didn't know we had nothing to do with their coming here, and didn't know that we're not fighting alongside them, and hadn't read any of our GalNet posts on the subject until we pointed them out to you, I don't think you're in any position to say either how we talk or how we act.

We are trying to stop people dying at Odd-Gelf gate. We are trying to stop it in a way that actually has a chance of success. That is the action of a loyalist - to put pride and itchy trigger fingers aside and try to actually fix the problem, not make it worse.

DuPuy Wrote:You loudly proclaim to stand for justice. Yet you turn a blind eye to the crimes of those you gather around you.

We did not invite them. They are just here.

DuPuy Wrote:Put down your Gallentean Champagne. Put down your Jovian caviar.

Bit too busy fighting our own 4 wars to stop for nibble, now that we've finished fighting KIA. Did you by any chance think we wouldn't find this patronising and insulting in the extreme?

DuPuy Wrote:Look at the casualty lists.
Look at the reams of Matari commoners listed on the killboards of your “blues”.
I am sure they are all there with good cause.
For we all know how solo university corporation pilots single-handedly take on every gatecamp they see... regardless of what they are flying.
And we know how our long-term friends reklessly shoot anything neutral in sight...

Again, offensive and patronising. You shot TAS when they were NRDS, so maybe you shouldn't preach about shooting everything in sight. And I've seen the mails and scanned the wrecks. Don't know if it's you or UNE or who, but someone is using neutrals with cyno haulers to attack TAS.

DuPuy Wrote:Your political-double talk is costing a torrent of Matari ships and clones.

Insulting and an outright lie. There has been no double-talk. We have in all cases stated the situation as it is.

DuPuy Wrote:Yes, Matari.
Those you claim to be fighting for.
Common people, remember.
Those you claim to be defending.
Those you claim to represent.

Do not insult them further with your empty words.

Try not to kill any more of them with your own bloodlust.

DuPuy Wrote:Either openly align yourself with terrorists who bleat their cause merely as an excuse to spread random violence.
Or make a stand to truly represent and preserve the qualities you claim to be defending.

Insults and lies. Read this rest of the forum.

DuPuy Wrote:Oh, we in Namiz'aar K'in know this is not easy.
Our many wounds show this.
But we bear them proudly, knowing we have not compromised our ideals.
We have not sold out those we strive to protect.
We do not deafen our ears to the suffering of the innocent through the loud beating of war drums.

You can boast all you like, but the fact of the matter is that you were the ones who had a choice in how you treated TAS. We got them to go NRDS - you got them to go NBSI. We're the ones trying to fix this by talking to TAS. Whereas you're threatening us.

DuPuy Wrote:Either declare your hand as a self interested separatist movement like any other, or re-examine what it means to be a true freedom fighter.

I'll tell you what it means - it means using your head, as well as your guns.